Glen Keane, Andreas Deja e il futuro del 2D

[Daria]

Beh in pratica per fare 2D ci vorrebbe un'idea geniale, un solido storyboarding, artisti sicuri di sé e tanto tempo... Potrebbero anche farlo, basta dare la data di uscita del film per sei anni dopo, non lo fanno di già d'altronde? XD

Va beh scherzo, capisco il discorso ma la speranza è l'ultima a morire!

[Scissorhands]

Praticamente si dicono cose che già si sapevano da un pezzo: poca voglia di rischiare e sciupare tempo e soldi.

No, si ufficializza solo che non è questione di rischio, budget, pubblico etc. Ma di comodità produttiva.

Ovvero di budget.

I film 2D si sono sempre fatti e se si vogliono fare non è certo l'essere comodo o meno a fermare uno studio. E anche il budget è relativo, perché se uno studio crede in un progetto e sa che può garantirgli un rientro SICURO investe anche centinaia di milioni.

E' tutto un problema di rischio e budget, perché ogni cosa si riconduce a questi due fattori. Il poter cambiare ogni cosa all'ultimo minuto, la maggiore velocità di animazione etc... equivale a un risparmio di tempo, ovvero a un risparmio di giorni di lavoro o di personale, quindi di stipendi.

Senza contare che ormai la qualità dei CG ormai è eccellente e per avere un 2D dalla costante qualità paragonabile a un CG devono clonare in massa Gleane, Deja, Goldberg, Henn etc..
mentre animatori CG molto bravi ne trovi quanti ne vuoi...

[Valerio]

Quindi è la fine?

[Scissorhands]

Quindi è la fine?

Si, moriremo tutti...

XD
comunque sostanzialmente ...si... il 2d diventerà come il bianco e nero ora. Si faranno ogni tanto film piccoli, di nicchia interessanti, magari con dietro registi di un certo calibro. Questo fino a quando non ci sarà un grosso successo 2D e risorgerà come l'araba fenice e tutti di nuovo a farlo.Oppure quando sorgerà un nuovo pseudoDisney che se ne frega dei soldi e fa le cose come vuole lui.

[brigo]

Oppure quando sorgerà un nuovo pseudoDisney che se ne frega dei soldi e fa le cose come vuole lui.

E pensare che basterebbe scongelare quello originale..

[Tigrotta]

Andreas Deja continua i lavori per "Mushka" e sul suo blog informa che il corto conterrà una canzone di Richard Sherman. Se cliccate sul link potete anche vedere delle prove per il teaser poster.

[Scissorhands]

Andreas Deja continua i lavori per "Mushka" e sul suo blog informa che il corto conterrà una canzone di Richard Sherman. Se cliccate sul link potete anche vedere delle prove per il teaser poster.

Esatto... in questo modo il 2D continuerà ad annaspare. Tramite progetti personale finanziati privatamente. Che poi non ho capito perché Deja non ha lanciato un kickstarter. Solo il suo nome avrebbe attirato chissà quanti investitori (me incluso).

Comunque la cosa figa è che cerca gente. Anche intern, però bisogna stare a los angeles. Ragà non so voi, ma se fossi li, io ci andrei gratis. faccio il caffè, le pulizie, prendo gli ordini per il pranzo... qualsiasi cosa pure di stare li

[Mister Mxyzptlk]

Questo fino a quando non ci sarà un grosso successo 2D e risorgerà come l'araba fenice e tutti di nuovo a farlo.Oppure quando sorgerà un nuovo pseudoDisney che se ne frega dei soldi e fa le cose come vuole lui.

Sarebbe l'unica soluzione al problema, ma stiam parlando di fantascienza per come ragionano ora!
Il problema è che... lo vediamo tutti come vengono trattati da produttori e grandi case i walt disney della nostra epoca (non mi riferisco solo all'ambito animazione)... chiunque abbia st'idea di cinema, ovvero non pensare all'incasso e basta, è considerato un buffone e chi non decide di vendersi non lavora! I tempi in cui a Walt tagliano i budget e lui dice: " Tenetevi Oswald e vaffanculo!" sono irripetibili, appunto, a un qualunque Walt Disney gli verrebbero tarpate le ali e basta, appunto!

[Valerio]

Non so mica se i tempi siano realmente diversi, eh. L'avidità, gli affari, il concetto di mungitura di ciò che va bene sono costanti della natura umana e artistica. Solo che Walt rappresenta quell'unico caso di perfetto bilanciamento tra arte e affari che riesce a sfondare, fare scuola e cambiare il mondo. E' una cosa che è successa, e se la studiamo è perché appunto sono cose che tendono a non succedere.

[LBreda]

Walt è stato anche tra i pionieri di una nuova arte. Se succede di nuovo, deve succedere con qualcosa di nuovo, non certo con l'animazione 2d

[Valerio]

E le bugie continuano. Il capo dell'animazione di BH6 ci rassicura sul 2D, ripetendo il mantra:

Q: Do you think 2D animation is gone forever at Disney?

Zach Parrish: I don't think anyone at Disney believes that. It's up to the directors, the whole process is director-run. So it's up to them how the whole thing is done and recently that's been CG. The next two projects will be CG as well but 2D has been used in our shorts, it's used in developments and we've had traditional 2D artists working on Frozen and Big Hero 6 giving advice and feedback on traditional animation. It's still very much alive and it's very much an option for any director in the future.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/201 ... -interview

[Valerio]

Le frustrazioni di James Lopez:

The difficult thing was that I was doing this all by myself, with a few of my friends that helped out generate some elements, but for the most part this was my thing. I think a lot of it was also to prove a point. I really wanted to demystify the process [of producing 2D animation]. I think there was an issue of how much [it costs to make these movies]. I remember hearing something like how much Princess and the Frog cost and I was like: “How is it that it cost that much? Does it really cost that much to make?” I had to prove it otherwise, to demystify it: “I don’t think it really costs that much. I have to see for myself”. So, Hullabaloo was really a test to see what it really takes to produce animation of this quality. So, I did just that. I animated a scene, I cleaned-up my own scene, I did my own digital ink and paint, and then composited it with a background. So, I’m pricing all these stuff down in my head like: “OK, it takes this long to animate, this long to clean-up, this long to color, this long to paint backgrounds, this long to composite”. A scene would take about two weeks. [A movie like that] can’t cost 80 million dollars. That’s what really convinced me.

I was trying to pitch to the studio that we can do this for less, hoping this would be enticing to the studio. If money is such a big concern, what if we produced these movies for a lot less than our profit margin? The chance would be greater to turn a profit because our profit margin would be higher. But I don’t know where that went. It wasn't really in their interest. It wasn't an issue. But I always thought it was. Money always seemed to be an issue. But it’s not really a concern for Disney.

http://www.themousecastle.com/2015/03/m ... baloo.html

[Eddy]

Che poi non ho capito perché Deja non ha lanciato un kickstarter. Solo il suo nome avrebbe attirato chissà quanti investitori (me incluso).

Immagino per questo motivo...

[Valerio]

E intanto il caro Aaron Blaise (regista di Koda) ci fa questo bel regalino in 2D

[Daria]

Ooooh mi sono subito iscritta al canale youtube! :O

[Valerio]

Una risposta che mi ha reso triste:

Q: You were once quoted as saying “If you take the drawing out of Disney, it just isn’t Disney”. I think this quote came around the change of 2D animation into 3D and going into CG animation and that was a big part of what ultimately led to you leaving the studio too. I’m interested in your views on 2D vs 3D. I know you’re a passionate person about 2D animation. Where does that come from and why is that so important to you?

Andreas Deja: Well, you work so hard for so many years and decades shaping your craft and developing that kind of a technique to express yourself artistically and I think that kind of art form, the type of drawn animation, is the history of Disney. That’s what Walt Disney did for all his years, refining it. Not to say he probably wouldn’t have done CG had he lived long enough, I’m sure he would have but the thing about… Actually, I had this argument with somebody in management who told me: “Now, Andreas! Walt Disney was an innovator and he always stepped forward and did color, he was the first in color, the first in sound, then he did live-action, he went from doing short films to feature films so he always kept going so he would have embraced CG”. I said “But! You’re forgetting something; he never left behind what he had been doing. He pretty much all his life still did shorts. He was adding to it. When he was doing live-action, he didn’t give up animation. He was adding to his portfolio”. And I said: “I can see all the other studios folding in terms of 2D animation but if there’s one studio on this planet which I think should and can afford to do both is probably this studio”. They didn’t listen. In the end, I saw it coming. I saw where the love was going. I just said: “Well, let me finish Winnie the Pooh. I have a bunch of Tigger stuff left, like about half a year and then I’m going away”. […]

There was one awkward moment, I won’t mention names here, but it really was my last day and two of the top top guys of the Disney management happened to walk right behind me and they had not talked to me about leaving Disney. No “good luck” or “thank you for your hard work”. There had been nothing but silence. They did go as far as opening the glass door for me. Nothing was said. I was out the door and that was it.

[Daria]

Dici bene! Non la dovevo leggere di prima mattina, che amarezza...

[Tigrotta]

Il 15 settembre avremo una nuova opera di Glen Keane legata al progetto 3e Scène promosso dall'Opéra National de Paris. Su facebook leggevo di un filmo live action con parti in animazione, ma non ho trovato fonti precise al riguardo. Bisognerà aspettare il 15 per saperne di più.

Fonte: http://publikart.net/3e-scene-scene-num ... mbre-2015/

[Goldensun]

Glen Keane sperimenta la realtà virtuale disegnando Ariel e la Bestia

[Valerio]

Dale Bear ci racconta come stanno utilizzando gli animatori 2D in Moana. Cioé per niente.

[After The Princess and the Frog], some of us were thinking we’re going to have to go on Rapunzel, which became Tangled, so a lot us thought “OK, I guess we’re going back to CG”. So, we all started doing tests on it. But the whole atmosphere of the CG people sort of changed. They became a bit more protective of their little “area” and they really didn’t like us being there. So, we were getting the message before we got into it too deep and finally Winnie the Pooh showed up so we all jumped ship and went over to Winnie the Pooh. But after that things changed. They went more CG. They wanted to use us more in the development-end of things. But I was finding a little resistance there. They asked us to do motion tests on characters to see how the character could move. So, we would do that. But then it got to the point where nobody was asking us to do anything. We would go in and ask “Is there anything you want us to do?” and they’d say “No, not right now”. So, I went to another gentleman by the name of Bill Schwab who is in character development and started picking up some stuff from him. But it becomes that piecemeal. You’re not really finding a niche there anymore. You’re not finding a lot of collaboration that much anymore which is kind of sad. One of the successful films they did was Tangled because Glen Keane came in and did draw-overs over almost every single shot and pushed the characters, pushed their dialogue, pushed their poses. They even brought in people to sculpt the characters so you could get a more artistic-looking design to it (straights against curves).

Once we started on Moana here they asked us for our input. “We really want your input”, they told us, to me and Mark Henn, and we went “Sure, no problem”. So, we went back and we started doing tests for everything and they were kind of skeptical of our critiques for it and then they were hesitant on asking for help on other areas of it and then when we would go to dailies... Now dailies is a place you go to speak up but on Moana we started going to dailies and speaking up and all of a sudden I’m called in – and I know the other guys were called in at various times – and told not to speak, not to say anything because it was the [CG] animators’ time with the directors. We were told we could speak if we want to go to rounds but the directors aren’t there so we’re up against the other animators and I don’t think they would have agreed with some of our thoughts. So, I started doing drawings instead. I would go back, I’d see something, I’d go back and find the scene and I’d do a printout and I’d do a draw-over and I’d put it on the animator’s desk. But then I was called in and told “You’re bombarding the animators with drawings and they don’t like it”. So, a lot of us just stopped going to dailies, we stopped really involving ourselves. I would find more satisfaction doing character development stuff with Bill Schwab and doing character poses and ideas of how this character could move, what kind of expression is this character going to have, what kind of costumes is it going to have but then things started to die down. I know there’s a lot of reworking on the story and stuff like that but it just doesn’t feel like you have a place there like you used to, when you had a character that you owned, and you had a crew and you could go through and really feel involved in this picture. Now, it’s not like that anymore. It’s like there’s a separation there. I don’t know what it is exactly but I know there are a lot of things the directors are missing when they see a CG test. I know John Musker would always say “We’re 2D guys and we’re not seeing this, and we’re not seeing that”. I think at one point I even offered to do a class on just what it is I think John’s missing but that hasn’t happened and I don’t know if it will. [...] There're some things they can't do yet like hair [in CG tests] and that sometimes is what sells the scene (or a piece of fabric on them or a grass skirt on them). You're trying to set a mood sometimes with certain things and if you can't do it... That's got to frustrate John and Ron a little bit because they're used to seeing ideas on paper right off the bat. You may not have all the eye blinks or all the dialogue but you got the main body language working for you.

[...] I hope [2D animation] comes back to life. Right now, I haven't even seen any [2D] shorts coming out of [the studio] either. We were doing quite a few there for a while and all of a sudden it just stopped.